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Messages - Red_Gambit

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121
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 06:03:12 PM »
EX Pinwheel loses to meaties. Like if Makoto stands on top of you after knockdown with an s.MP, it'll trade/win outright.

Juri is a character that pretty much has all the tools, yet none of the tools at the same time. The fact she's rated as A-Tier in Japan really is testament to the fact she DOES have tools, its just your margin of error is much lower since she doesn't have any dumb "I Fucked Up" options (e.g. DP FADC). At a non-god-tier level, when you're not playing perfectly, those weaknesses are much more apparent and this makes her a 'harder' character than those that have Get Out of Jail Free card options.

Like if you're on point, her c.MP, c.HP and s.MK can anti air pretty much any jump in in the game and you can almost run a midscreen Dhalsim-style web/brickwall of limbs. However, also much like Sim if you fuck up you're stuck with them in your face pressing buttons all day for almost free.

That said, she's nowhere near as hard as people make her out to be. And you don't actually need some crazy claw-hand style for fireball storing to use her effectively IMO.

The way I look at fireball storing, in most matchups only the MK and LK fireballs are worth holding on to. The HK fireball just has such a weird angle that its generally pretty useless, especially when all her other AAs are so good already.

MK Fireball is the one you want to be using for fireball wars. It's the one that nullifies projectiles since LK goes under things like Hadokens. However, in storing an MK you lose her c.MK which is an amazing tool since it lowers your hitbox and has stupid good horizontal range. MK fireball is duckable so in closerange/corner pressure it's not so hot.

LK Fireball IMO is one of the best to keep held in IMO. At full/midscreen, you're probably not using your LK normals all that much. It also allows you to do c.MK x LK release as an equivalent of a Ryu style c.MK xx Hadoken. However, the advantage of Juri's is, if it's a close range c.MK xx LK Release you can link c.MK xx Pinwheel after it and even from max range, you can FADC into c.HP xx Pinwheel. In the corner especially, LK fireball is ridiculous since you always get the c.MK followup since there's less pushback and on block you're +6 or something so you get mixups/blockstrings and pressure for days.

The j.HK, c.MK xx Fuhajin Store blockstring you vaguely mentioned before works as a true gapless blockstring that lets you reset to neutral, get a store off and is safe (since Fuhajin store, assuming it's blocked, is safe). There's a bit of a risky frametrap you can work where you do a full store/release and that can work if you've trained people that you're just storing Fuhajins.

Unless I'm mistaken, everything loses to a properly timed meaty unless it has a 0 frame startup or invincibility. EX Pinwheel has a 7 Frame startup, so that goes without saying. I was only pointing out that given Juri's lack of options in repelling people who get in her face, that's probably the best of a bad bunch unless you can read an attack and use her EX parry to escape.

Anyways, I agree with everything else you've said, especially about fireball storage. It's also worth noting that the LK fireball travels the furthest (both in regular and EX versions) so it also makes the best zoning tool since it actually hits stuff it really has no business hitting, like Blanka Balls. The MK fireball completely misses crouching opponents, and is really only useful for fireball fights or shooting down a Ryu/Ken/Akuma tatsu. Though as you said, she has better options for that anyway.  The only time I've ever found HK fireballs useful is they do frustrate T.Hawk and Adon players going for fullscreen dives (though obviously not against the EX versions) and it will actually smack Makoto's Ultra 2 right out of the air, which can be useful for baiting since they generally think it's a safe anti-fireball move.

Also, fireball release is +4 on block, so between that and the pushback it can be used as a finisher for a very safe, easy blockstring that gives good spacing afterwards.

Anyways, I'm not trying to sound like I'm the god of Juri or anything. I'm just speaking from my own experience, I'm happy to hear other useful tips and advice people have :)

122
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 04:51:57 PM »
Iíd definitely be interested to find out what OS options she has. Genkibot did show me one where you can OS j.HK into Pinwheel if your opponent backdashes to avoid the j.HK.

123
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 04:30:51 PM »
EX Pinwheel is definitely not a good get the hell off me move especially if your opponent has brain cells

And I would counter that with the argument of ďIt is a good get-off-me move if you have brain cells.Ē

Doing an EX pinwheel on wakeup is about as smart as doing an EX dp on wakeup. You need to pick and chose when to use it. Some situations when it is useful are:

* It will beat out most normal jump ins (not crossups. Hurtbox does not seem to extend all around her) however youíll only get a fraction of the overall damage and thereís a chance it will trade, depending on how well timed their attack is. Though if successful chances are your opponent will be knocked to the other side of the screen. I'm not suggesting anyone should actually use it as an anti-air, but it does work in the "get the hell of me" capacity for that scenario.

* Projectiles: EX Pinwheel is immune to all projectiles. This includes, EXís, Supers, Ultras and other weird stuff classed as a projectile like Codyís Tornado Uppercut and Yun/Yangs Palm Strike. This is particularly useful for people who try to land said attacks as meatys on wakeup (Iím look at you, Guile players using Sonic Hurricane)

* Frame trap: EX Pinwheel can be used as a frame trap after a blocked light/medium Pinwheel. However as Genkibot has already pointed out to me, it is not a true frame trap as obviously light/medium pinwheels are both negative on block. Instead it relies on the pushback generated by both moves to make up the negative frames. So while it is unsafe, there's really no downside to throwing it out after said blocked pinwheel because if they are going to successfully punish you, chances are you probably couldn't have blocked their reversal anyway.

124
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 03:19:47 PM »
Hey Smasher, long time no see! Yeah, Iíve been playing a lot on XBL lately just because Iíve met some players on there who are fun to hang out with and do lobbies with. I have been on PC a bit, but AskewTomcat usually jumps on me to do a lobby then immediately beats the crap out of me because he knows my play style backwards and forwards.

Anyways, Iíve recently rededicated myself to Juri and trying to actually skill up with her, as I realized that my standard strategy of spamming divekicks, B&Bís and the occasional tick throw was about as effective as it sounds. So I pretty much started again from the ground up, trying to learn some new fundamentals and how to maximize the properties of her moves. Some of the stuff Iíve discovered so far:

* Her HP is actually pretty gdlke. No only does cr.HP work as an anti-air (duh) but her j.HP actually causes her to drop faster than she otherwise would, making it a nice tool for safe jumps provided you donít miss (still working on that part) as it results in an a untechable knockdown. Lastly if you use it as a close attack, she becomes airborne meaning she canít be thrown which makes it handy for baiting.

* Fuhajin store is safe on block, meaning itís a pretty viable option if you just want to harass people/wakeup games/apply corner pressure.

* Juri can B&B hit confirm to Ultra 2 by doing a focus attack (I still havenít mastered her FADC inputs) by doing jHK > cr.MK > Fuhajin > level 2 Focus> Ultra.

* Speaking of B&Bís, Juri can j.KH > cr.MK > Fuhajin  >cr.MK > HK Pinwheel from midscreen if you land it deep enough. If you come up short the second cr.MK will probably whiff.

Anyways, none of this is going to be news to Genkibot, but sheís still a work in progress for me so I feel like Iím making some good improvements. As you say, sheís a character where you really need to be on point with all your mechanics including rushdown, zoning and execution. While her EX Pinwheel is a good ďGet the hell off meĒ move, itís ridiculously unsafe on block and should really only be used as a last resort. Iíve actually been trying to learn Viper lately as Iím actually finding sheís helping with my execution because youíre not allowed to mash buttons when playing as her or youíll just get a cancelled EX Sizemo instead of the jump cancelled Ultra that you wanted :P

125
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Character weaknesses/drawbacks
« on: August 28, 2012, 01:33:03 PM »
As a Juri player who is just getting back into SFIV from a long hiatus on SFxT, Iím finding myself relearning a lot of matchups that Iíd either forgotten how to play, or have discovered I wasnít playing them right to begin with.

So the thought occurs to me that instead of trial and error, I might seek out some advice from some knowledgeable forum users for some character specific information. Feedback does not need to be specific to Juri in terms of how to punish, Iím just happy to learn basic info about strength weaknesses of certain moves. So, hereís some questions!

Blanka:

* Lightning Cannonball: Iím confused about this Ultra. I know you need to block high, then low from mid range, but at point blank do you need to block low/high/low? I start out blocking high and still seem to get caught out.

* Regular Cannonball: Even from full screen, this move seems to land at a distance on block thatís nearly impossible to punish (though I do know he can be smacked out of it with a normal poke while incomming)

Zangief/T-Hawk:

* Iím generally terrified of getting close to grapplers due to the priority of command grabs, and itís obviously dangerous to jump due to the threat of Lariet/Tomahawk so I just settle for slow zoning. Any good strategies for trying to open this beefy duo up?

Rufus/Twins:

* I actually have very little experience playing against any of these characters online as you hardly see them, and when you do theyíre either terrifyingly good or utterly terrible. Once you get locked down with divekick pressure it feels very difficult to escape. Any tips?

Sakura:

* Sakuraís wakeup vortex feels like itís incredibly difficult to escape for Juri because you canít parry light tatsu (armor breaking) and you canít EX Pinwheel because the tatsu oddly passes right through. Naturally you can block but then it means youíre playing nothing but defense every time you wake up, which makes you pretty predictable/open to throws. Advice?

Bison:

* Bison is one of those characters who just feels difficult to open up if heís in the mood to turtle. Naturally heís blocking all the time for charge, so unless you can apply some serious pressure going for a frontal assault is generally a waste of time. You can fish for throws but if theyíre used to that it will get teched a majority of the time. Itís dangerous getting into a poking match because of the range of st.hk and slide/scissors. Lastly jumping in feels equally difficult because head stomp will flat out win or trade in the best case scenario. Any good overall strategies for the dictator?

Vega:

* Seems pretty much every Vega I run into, all they want to do is turtle. Just crouch back and poke with claw for range, crystal flash after a hit confirm, barcelona kick if you jump in, and throw out cross screen attacks at a distance. Any good ways to approach this matchup?


126
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 11:20:27 AM »
Quote from: sojiokitaau
The good thing about it is there is 0 grey damage when you use it, unlike every other counter in the game Juri's can be used to escape a lot of gauranteed chip damage KOs. I think the EX should be completely invulnerable on start up, because I noticed when using her it seems to be useless as reversal against for example meaty DPs, unless I'm mistaken it doesn't work on Ibuki's kunai vortex either if the kunai is timed correctly.

Ugh, Iíd have to go look up the framedata on SRK, but you are correct: Even the EX version does have startup (as I said, I think itís 1 or 2 frames max) so it wonít beat a perfectly timed meaty/kunai. It will however beat a meaty/Kunai if itís timing is out by even a fraction of a second, so unless youíre playing against someone who can set up their attacks perfectly every time, it makes for a fairly decent wakeup option. Just donít do it every time or youíre asking to get thrown.

Also, youíre quite right about her parry not taking any grey damage. This makes it a fantastic option for bugging the living hell out of Ryu/Ken/Akuma/Sagat who think they can sit full screen and spam projectiles all day to win a fireball fight. Once you get the hang of it, using the mp version allows you to parry safely, training them to launch more fireballs to catch you out on timing. This sets up the trap of:

A: Using .hp to launch into the air and divekick punish
B: Using .lp to dash forward into a B&B combo.

It is important to note that itís very difficult to use this strategy against Guile or DeeJay, as their projectiles are much harder to read because their speed is a lot more varied than your average fireball. Goukken can also be annoying if he wants to mix up the charge/angle of his fireballs.

Next, be aware that parrying multi-hit fireballs like EX/charge/super/ultra the parry only eats the fire hit. If you use .mp you will wear the remaining hits.

Lastly, while Juri takes no damage from parrying any attack, it DOES still build stun. So it can be a little embarrassing to parry ten fireballs in a row only to miss the 11th and get instant dizzy off a single hit.

127
Street Fighter IV - General Discussion / Re: Any Juri Players
« on: August 28, 2012, 10:21:52 AM »
Iíd be hurt if Genkibot doesnít remember me. Pretty sure Iím the only other person in Australia who plays Juri as much as he does. He even had the courtesy to sit down and show me some nice option-select setups, so props for that.

Anyways, new member on the forums here, so apologies for digging up this old topic.

To me (and this could just be my inner scrub talking) I think Juri still has a lot of untapped potential. She gets shunned by a lot of players for her obvious weaknesses: Below average health, lack of DP/Wakeup reversals, high execution (if youíre looking to do blockstrings/pressure/FSE) and has a lot of bad matchups without many good ones.

But if you dig deeper (and you really do need to dig) Juri has a lot of technology that isnít available to any other fighter:

* Except for Gouken, sheís the only other fighter who can Anti-Air fireball.
* Her reversal/parry works on anything thatís not armor breaking, so this includes supers and Ultras like Ryuís fireballs.
* One of the best zoners in the game (except possibly for Dhalsim)
* Fireball release resets combo links, so you can use the same move twice in a combo (Eg: cr.mk > release >cr.mk)
* Is a beast at building meter.
* Has a Kara throw (st.mp > throw)
* FSE can be a constant threat in any round, even if you get no damage from it thereís no downside to activating it (as opposed to Ultra 2 which is guaranteed damage, but only if you can land it)
* Divekick is much more useful as a zoning tool than as a pressure tool (Unlike Twins, Rufus, Seth, ect)
* Her fireball charge is an excellent way to bait reversals since itís safe on block. You can also use it to end blockstrings or bait fireball punishes like Seths Ultra 1 from full screen.
* EX Pinwheel is immune to projectiles, so she can easily escape vortex setups from Akuma, Sakura, ect. EX Parry has virtually no startup (1-2 frames?) so it also applies, especially good for beating Ibukiís pesky Kunai traps.

I can keep going, but I think you get the idea. This years Evo was an excellent example of just how well balanced AE is now, with the top 8 all being different characters, including some weíve never seen make it so far like Cammy. For that reason alone I think Juri can be a real contender in the right hands, which makes it more of a shame that lately her champions like Juicebox/WeirdoNeo have been moving away from her.

Having said all that Iím definitely not the best player around with her, and itís really only recently Iíve started to learn not to get frustrated and start doing really stupid stuff with her whenever I begin to lose. However I intend to keep practicing and improving, and Iíll be representing at Buttonmash in September!

128
Stupid question from stupid newbie: Xbox or PS3? Wanna make sure I bring the right controller...

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