Author Topic: [SFxT] Potential tournament issues with this game  (Read 5569 times)

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[SFxT] Potential tournament issues with this game
« on: February 14, 2012, 04:15:11 PM »
So I finally went and had a read at how the gem system works, how you select them, and how stuff is activated. When I read it, literally all I could think was: "wow, this is going to be impossible to implement in tournaments." With so many options, so MUCH to buy, and the sheer volume avaliable to players (can you imagine players trying to counter-pick gem layouts?), this particular feature seems to have been developed from the ground up to be a nightmare for tournament players.

Anyone have any potential ideas or solutions for the issues that are going to come up? I've seen multiple people on SRK suggest just not using gems, which means essentially we've accepted that a tournament game is different from a normal game. The other suggestion is that only standard gems be allowed, no DLC. Makes sense, but then you have the awkward issue of playing an outdated and imcomplete game. The other thing to consider is how players have to manage thier "gem layouts." Does the winner have to stay with his gem selection?

For example, the easiest one I can think of, is that there was mention of a gem that allowed you to NOT take damage from single hits. Meaning, in reality, that if you ever fight Dhalsim, this is the only gem you pick. But lets say player 1 is fighting player 2's team of Sagat/Guile. Player 1 loses the first game, and then counter picks with Vega/Sim. Player 2 would obviously have to stick to Sagat/Guile, but then does he have the option of picking this "no damage from single hits" gem, which makes the counter pick a lot less effective.

I don't know, I feel the first couple of tournaments are going to be a bit of a mess. People have compared this to LoL, and how you have setups in that games, but that's a really silly comparrison, because LoL games take 25-50 minutes, and there is a full 2-5 minutes of pre-time before each game, even in casuals. The other comparrison is Magic the Gathering, which is an even sillier comparrioson, because the ONLY active element in Magic is the cards (which people keep comparring to gems, for some reason.)

Also "gems" sounds really stupid to say out loud.
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Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 05:11:42 PM »
im more worried about vega cuz hes more broken then any gem

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 06:54:07 PM »
Just FYI there is a tournament patch coming after the release of the game which is suppose to streamline the gem selection process (I would guess that would be on the character select screen than..) as well as add a couple of other tournament friendly things.

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For example, the easiest one I can think of, is that there was mention of a gem that allowed you to NOT take damage from single hits. Meaning, in reality, that if you ever fight Dhalsim, this is the only gem you pick. But lets say player 1 is fighting player 2's team of Sagat/Guile. Player 1 loses the first game, and then counter picks with Vega/Sim. Player 2 would obviously have to stick to Sagat/Guile, but then does he have the option of picking this "no damage from single hits" gem, which makes the counter pick a lot less effective.

Does not exist, I'm guessing you heard or whoever told you misunderstood Ultradavid. Apparently he went on a rant about a certain gem because Dhalsim had no normal that does over 100 damage. Needless to say, he got corrected, even his "I meant this" version was still pretty fucked up, like it ignores blockstun or something.

DLC gems should be banned from a pure logistics viewpoint, DLC characters get banned all the time so it's the same as that except not as meaningful since a character is far more of a big deal than any of these gems.

I think we should play with gems, America and everyone would look silly if they banned gems and than in December an AE for this comes out and Japan plays with gems with no problem. Question is do we stick with the inbuilt presets (for time reasons) if the tournament patch is only a few months away?

SSFIV & SFxTK - Cammy/Ken
UMvC3 -Storm/SentinelMorrigan

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 07:16:48 PM »
gems were never the issue at the first place, its like complaining that there are lifebars in a fighting game. Its more of the balance of players/trolls ratio of a certain product and SFxT is the product we're discussing here.

Offline Gamogo

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 12:40:38 AM »
As someone who runs tournaments and local gatherings with the YSB group in Sydney, DLC is a serious kick in the balls for us. Its expensive, its annoying, it creates work, its clumsily implemented.

SFxT checks all the nightmarish boxes for organisers and it also has the added complication of console specific characters. I'm very curious to see how this tournament add-on pans out, because right now SFxT strikes me as an online only game until some standards are nailed down that organisers can target for their systems.

I had a good chat to Seth about tournament logistics with something as simple as SFIV > Super > AE and MVC and its various DLC options and how even they were a pain in the balls. SFxT compared to this is just obscene so far though he definitely put a lot of stock in and flexed some serious spin with this tournament pack so I'm curious to see what the solution it brings to the table is. I'm thinking a cut back 3 choice powerup/weighting system (i.e. power, speed, assist) to apply to characters and away you go.

Running brackets with oddball gem load-outs for each player is going to get real tedious real fast. I'm holding judgement until I have the final game + this tournament pack however as I suspect there's a little more to be explained yet.
So keep your bankroll lottery eat your salad day deathbed motorcade.

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 01:24:26 AM »
SFxT checks all the nightmarish boxes for organisers and it also has the added complication of console specific characters.

How is this a complication? From what I've seen console exclusive characters are pretty much always banned, the Soul Calibur 2 system exclusives, Kratos in MK9 etc. Not to mention that in Australia isn't nearly every tournament primarily run on Xbox? It seems a no brainer to me... and Mr Wizard already banned them for Evo and that goes for Kratos again as well as any future console exclusive.

DLC gems should be banned, this is pre order exclusives so it could take months for them to even become normal DLC, only people who preordered from Best Buy in America have a certain character in Soul Calibur V, I don't think his actual DLC release date has even been mentioned yet.

Only issue I see day 1 is gem selection, I really don't see what's wrong with sticking with presets if you're hellbent on saving time, maybe after a few weeks when people know what gems they want from experience.. than let them choose.. but if a tournament patch is coming within a months time of release I don't see any harm in just sticking with presets. If you find a broken combination.. save that shit for nationals.

Anyway for the tournament patch did he actually tell you anything worth mentioning or was it mainly saying it was good without actually telling you why? Still if I put my tin foil hat on I'll say Capcom worked on an gem selection screen for the arcade version and have just brought it forward to get patched into the initial console release.
SSFIV & SFxTK - Cammy/Ken
UMvC3 -Storm/SentinelMorrigan

Offline Gamogo

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:51 AM »
How is this a complication? From what I've seen console exclusive characters are pretty much always banned, the Soul Calibur 2 system exclusives, Kratos in MK9 etc. Not to mention that in Australia isn't nearly every tournament primarily run on Xbox? It seems a no brainer to me... and Mr Wizard already banned them for Evo and that goes for Kratos again as well as any future console exclusive.

In the strictest sense it isn't for the reasons you explained. But my point is that Capcom and other derpy developers keep pulling this shit which translates to wasted dev time and character slots. I see these unique characters as nothing more than throw away marketing tools that serve shallow purposes. I'd have much more respect for them if they instead used the time and energy to create these characters instead on stock game features for all to enjoy irrespective of platform.

Xbox is the platform tournaments and so on gravitate to for us, but that still isn't a valid justification for this crap and is kinda beside the point. Fighting games have a sizeable chunk of their success rooted in the arcade founded origins of local competition and that is growing exponentially. Despite this, Capcom (of all people!) continue to derp around with online focused nonsense or disregard design decisions that factor in both offline and online play as well as they could.

I respect them identifying with a growing casual crowd of online players but I strongly feel they could better execute design decisions that cater equally well to both offline and off play. Like I said though, Seth agreed with my points when we discussed this stuff and shared the same concerns and revealed that it was something they discussed at length internally, which is why I am eager to see their 'solution' of sorts to a widely debated issue. He didn't give specifics (company man mode kicked in when I pried) which wasn't expected as it is yet to be formally announced and detailed though he said "it will address many of the concerns tournament organisers - myself included, as I am on the EVO board - have with the game for offline play." Take that as you will. I translated it as fluff and in reality I am expecting something kinda half baked. I do have a little confidence in them identifying with small things (char select button configs, an anti accidental pause mechanism, fast rematch options and so on) however so perhaps they are on the right track.

Personally I take the position that any Capcom game that does not receive an arcade release is going to be heavily subjected to the growing trends with DLC and online play. Interestingly Marvel only really dipped a toe in here (2 DLC chars) though with SFxT it seems like they might be going the whole hog.

Time will tell. SFxT is going to be an interesting release and that's without even factoring in the actual game itself.
So keep your bankroll lottery eat your salad day deathbed motorcade.

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 03:22:26 PM »
In the strictest sense it isn't for the reasons you explained. But my point is that Capcom and other derpy developers keep pulling this shit which translates to wasted dev time and character slots. I see these unique characters as nothing more than throw away marketing tools that serve shallow purposes. I'd have much more respect for them if they instead used the time and energy to create these characters instead on stock game features for all to enjoy irrespective of platform.

But this isn't addition by subtraction, just because they don't spend time on 5 characters (really 3 since 2 are clones) doesn't mean you'll get more features. The guys coding and designing the characters won't be the same as whoever came up with scramble mode or whoever is working on a better than SFIV replay system etc. Sony pay for this development time as well...

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Xbox is the platform tournaments and so on gravitate to for us, but that still isn't a valid justification for this crap and is kinda beside the point. Fighting games have a sizeable chunk of their success rooted in the arcade founded origins of local competition and that is growing exponentially. Despite this, Capcom (of all people!) continue to derp around with online focused nonsense or disregard design decisions that factor in both offline and online play as well as they could.

Dude arcades aren't growing, they're dying for the most part, not to mention near non-existent in the biggest market America. I honestly don't think Street Fighter V will be released in the arcades, this is most definitely a next gen title and will be developed for Xbox720/PS4/WiiU. Harada the head for Tekken says that his Tekken x Streetfighter might not even get an arcade release... and this is from a franchise that is far stronger in arcades across South East Asia than SF period

It doesn't help that SFIV units cost a shit load in the arcades (Remember those TRF tournaments? They never even upgraded their SFIV machine to Super because it wasn't worth it) and even than Japan would rather play something like Gundam Extreme VS (the series was started by Capcom...) which is far more popular in the arcades as well as on console.

SFIV sold 3.1 million, how many of that do you think played it in an arcade? How many in a tournament? You may not like the focus on online but its clearly the right thing for Capcom as a company to do, especially when it gets outperformed by so many other games in the arcade.

In 2015 where do you see arcades?

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Personally I take the position that any Capcom game that does not receive an arcade release is going to be heavily subjected to the growing trends with DLC and online play. Interestingly Marvel only really dipped a toe in here (2 DLC chars) though with SFxT it seems like they might be going the whole hog.

Probably because the game sold to customer shit even though they shipped their 2 million copies, and than all the DLC they did bombed. Easy to see why....

Jill - Popular character, yet they include her most despised version.
Shuma  - 99% of people who bought MVC3 would think to themselves, who the fuck is Shuma?
Alt Costumes - 1 color are you fucking kidding me? Oh you're playing against the only other person in the world who bought the same DLC and uses your characters? Too bad, default costume for you.
Shadow Battles - What tosser thought these were going to sell?
SSFIV & SFxTK - Cammy/Ken
UMvC3 -Storm/SentinelMorrigan

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Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 03:38:40 PM »

Offline Gamogo

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 04:14:44 PM »
Dude, that linked site contains Malware.

D:
So keep your bankroll lottery eat your salad day deathbed motorcade.

Offline Gamogo

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 04:48:23 PM »
A whole bunch of stuff.

Agreed, well put. Fighting games as a whole are undergoing a major shift in how they are presented to the player with the traditional view (local tournaments, cut and dry options) of them being upset in many ways with DLC and the growing online focus. The heavily rooted traditions the fighting game community has results in many being hostile to these changes, and in many cases for good reasons. It also doesn't help (the animosity) that Capcom are considered the standard or yardstick for fighting games.

I agree that at the end of all this that Capcom are a business and given the direction console (and in many cases PC now also) game development is headed, they'd be sacrificing a lot of potential sales by sticking to traditional guns and failing to hop aboard the trends emerging now that the arcade model is slipping away as expected. Such is life, they're a business.

Regardless, DLC (and other bolt-on content) remains a pain in the balls because for fighting game players there will always be a local community for the foreseeable future which translates to playing offline and often. DLC combined with DRM makes things even more hellish for us, especially on the Xbox platform. I feel this will result in potential community playerbase splits or stripped back offline 'only' ways to play the game if DLC and customisation becomes a shore to replicate in a room of players offline compared to the comfort of playing at home online. Will still be it fun though? Hell, probably. Especially if you're an online only kind of player - SFxT will be tonnes of fun.

The fondness I have for games that have arcade releases isn't the actual arcade experience per se, its moreso the design ethic that goes into creating an arcade game that comes across in subsequent console ports. They strike me as having a more solid and thorough effort in their overall design and typically are stripped back and simple. There's an elegance to them. Console oriented titles get bloated and fluffy and don't have the same feel to them - at least to me. Case in point, consider vanilla SFIV. A solid fighter with a focused direction for the arcade. Subsequent updates instead were (obviously) console oriented and with them came a slip in production design, bloat and feature creep that felt incomplete and washed out until AE 2012 which might almost be too little, too late. Again, these are just my sentiments but I see and feel a clear distinction between arcade oriented titles and what are clearly console geared titles. There's a charm to arcade games that I can't quite put a finger on that is 'missing' from the latter.

SFxT is I am interested in because it marks the beginning of a lot changes for Capcom in the fighting game arena. I feel like I am more interested in what this game changes for the genre and expectations of players as a whole rather than the actual game itself.
So keep your bankroll lottery eat your salad day deathbed motorcade.

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 05:24:52 PM »


If you can lug around an arcade stick.... Wonder how it will be used though, just simply plug it in and when you select your character and on the gem selection part where you select presets maybe it will have USB 1, USB 2 or whatever?

Of course a problem is that you would need 4 usb slots with 2 sticks and usb drives... IIRC the new Xbox and the old PS3 are fine but the old Xboxes and the new PS3 slim don't have enough slots? Still this might only be part of the solution and if implemented well enough could be a nice feature. If it can save some preset teams, outfits, colors, gems, button config it would save some time.. hopefully Capcom aren't just using this feature solely for gems.
SSFIV & SFxTK - Cammy/Ken
UMvC3 -Storm/SentinelMorrigan

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 05:42:56 PM »
Problem: what if the tournament is run on a PS3, and you have an Xbox, can you still use your stick? Maybe we'll be seeing "dual modded" USB ports, lol.

Additional problems: gems are meant to be an ACTIVE part of gameplay, meaning that your gem layout will change to match opponents, and, I'd imagine, characters. Pre-selected load outs are fine if thats all that people are going to use, but as a person who plays like, 10 Marvel characters and changes assists all the time, I don't like it one bit.

I honestly think the real solution to this is that there is gonna be some stupid "gem setup" area with a console dedicated to people coming and selecting thier teams and layouts and whatnot.
Play Skullgirls

Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »
Also, Evo has already declared this game as part of thier lineup (without a single tournament being held...), so, at least for this year, tournament organisers are going to have to find a way to include this game in their lineup.

I cannot think of a single solution that doesn't make this the longest running game in history, and not because of gameplay, lol.
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Offline Ziggy

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Re: Potential tournament issues with this game
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 06:06:44 PM »
If a company won't do button configs right there's next to zero chance of them doing anything else right.

We've had a chance to play it and we all know that, as it stands right now, gem config sucks. There's a promised "tournament mode" but should people invest in a competitive game upfront based on promised features coming down the DLC-pipe at an undisclosed date?

It's probably time to kick back and make Capcom beg for our approval instead of the other way around. People made games like MvC2 last over 10 years with zero revisions or DLC, not to mention next to no support from Capcom themselves. SF4 might be getting long in the tooth but it's still very popular and not all that old. There's really no reason to embrace SFxT as a major tournament game just because it's new. If SFxT isn't suitable for competitive play then I doubt it'll last long in that setting.

Plenty of "attractive/new" fighting games were "stillborn" in the tournament scene for that very reason. For example MS put plenty of money behind DOA4 but it never had any real traction as a serious tournament game. It would be sad if something as big as SFxT wound up in that class but honestly if it happens it'll be entirely Capcom's fault.

Making SFxT decent should be a no-brainer. Few people  had any problems until Ono said "gems". It's been hard to take it seriously ever since. Even if people play the thing and say "gems are OK" that does nothing to counter the tournament problems around gems. It's a horrible situation for the game to be in and Capcom chose to put it there. I see no reason why the competitive community should get involved with SFxT, but they're buying up a lot of support preemptively e.g. Evo, Cross Assault. I'm reminded of FigJam - a terrible game that many people in Japan played because it was in SBO, and then dropped as soon as SBO was over because of how horrible it was. Could SFxT suffer the same fate just because of some dumb anti-tournament design decisions?

BTW DOA4 was at Evo too. Games can push their way into Evo and still wind up "dead on arrival".