Author Topic: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback  (Read 7812 times)

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Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback
« on: February 20, 2012, 10:11:33 AM »
This is another topic, not related to the ST event at OHN. After speaking a little bit about the ST competition in Sydney with some of the guys in Sydney, we were thinking about running more ST and HDR event's during the year. Currently for set ups I have a Dreamcast with an official copy of the ST game and I have just purchased another official copy of the game today, so pretty soon that wil be 2.

Though I don't have a joysticks setup for it just yet, but I will have a chat with Kyokugen and see what my options are for getting some HORI sticks converted for the Dreamcast. Obviously running HDR is easy, Xbox or PS3. And I believe Kyo has DC as well. For the ST events, I would like to keep these on a Dreamcast console.

The ACT has a decent ST & HDR community, there are some pretty good players from here, and with regular event's I'm sure we can get a strong showing as there is interest here,, also there are good ST players from NSW, QLD, VIC, and all other parts of the country, I think there are a lot of players that deserve a chance to be noticed in this timeless classic, and I will push for it to happen! We are going to bring ST and HDR back into the Australian Community. And hopefully with some luck! make these event's bigger at the nationals! we had our chances in the past, we didn't take them, I think it's time we do.


Offline Maz

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 11:02:55 AM »
Count me in Vlad. If there's anything that can be done for the online scene that would be great too. I mean.. GGPO is well known already, so maybe not much can be done to improve that scene, except maybe an occasional online tournament. But the HD:R scene could be up'd. Like if people put HD:R in the "beacon" thing on XBL.. or there is a list of gamertags who can play it.

I think the two factors of online are:

  • provides good matchup learning experience
  • keeps the community entertained between IRL meetups.


Of course there's some negatives too such as lag, button timing etc.. but I think its more good for the scene than bad.

Anyways, enough of online talk.. what is the show of interest today..? For local area meets, or interstate Syd->ACT etc?

And the final question, addressing the white elephant in the room -> ST vs HD:R <- How do we approach this.. the core ST players (like myself) might be hesitant to embrace HD:R because of the threat it poses to future core ST tournaments. I'm sure its a benign threat and maybe even paranoia.. but probably a good thing to address early on just in case.

Offline Ziggy

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 11:58:51 AM »
Everybody knows how I feel on this topic, but if YSB had a serious representation for SF2 on a regular basis I'd probably participate. However I'm pretty inflexible about what I'd like to see.  :P

Dreamcast ST
OzHadou has 2 PS1/2 -> Dreamcast converters I'd be happy to place into the hands of the ST community for this exercise. We don't need Dreamcasts for tournaments any more so I'm happy to donate them to this cause.

Having said this I will neither endorse nor support ST on Dreamcast. My own Dreamcast crashes all the time and I can't see the value in replacing or repairing it. I have no interest being involved in a game that I cannot play at home.

Please don't bother pointing out emulators etc. Those are not solutions for a tournament scene interested in sustainable growth. Sticking to a platform that cannot be bought and randomly dies mid-game is a recipe for failure. Persist with Dreamcasts if you like but don't expect many call-ups (if any) from major tournaments if you do. That's just how it is.


HDR
First up people need to understand there's no need for another "Remixed vs. Classic" debate. That's been done to death and since HDR offers both and neither is rubbish there's no reason to go on about this. If the majority want classic (which BTW is very close to Dreamcast, which in turn is very close to arcade ST) then so be it.

As vlade says, the reality is that HDR is commercially available on current hardware. It's reliable, it's accessible, it's affordable and it's commercially viable. The crying about graphics has to stop. This is SF2 - nobody has ever stuck it out with SF2 because it looked better than every other game. They stuck it out because it played better than any other game.

Music? I don't care.

Widescreen or 4:3? Don't care.

Sprites? Since the backgrounds have to be new, do yourselves a favour and suck it up with the new sprites. Despite popular opinion you will not go blind if you play HDR with the new sprites. :P

It's time to stop training for the imaginary "Japan vs. The World" ST Olympics that are never going to happen. Either ST gets serious or it stays forgotten. I know certain people in the US are trying to drum up an arcade ST revival but they aren't going to get it over the line under those conditions in this day and age. Even if they get enough players they won't get the backing needed to go any further, keeping them squarely in a forgotten back corner while Capcom pumps money into the far less toxic SF4/SFxT/MvC3 space.

So please stop slashing the wrists of the SF2 scene and come to a realistic consensus. I know the older players feel like Classic Mode can't be taken seriously, but nobody else can take Dreamcasts or Superguns seriously, and as I've said before the wider fighting game community outnumbers the ST scene by a massive amount. If they're not convinced then you're on the fast track to nowhere. A tiny compromise is all that stands in the way for ST. I hope people are getting closer to making that compromise. We will see.


Best of luck to vlade for trying to make inroads here. I hope his efforts will not go unappreciated by the Australian ST players. :)

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 01:49:16 PM »
Count me in Vlad. If there's anything that can be done for the online scene that would be great too.

Thanks Maz, yeah I'll be on GGPO most days, if I can everyday, there will be plenty of debate going on there :) but I think it is important to keep practicing at the game as well.

And the final question, addressing the white elephant in the room -> ST vs HD:R <- How do we approach this.. the core ST players (like myself) might be hesitant to embrace HD:R because of the threat it poses to future core ST tournaments. I'm sure its a benign threat and maybe even paranoia.. but probably a good thing to address early on just in case.

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about HDR posing a threat, we can have both going, but at this point HDR is the better option for big Tourney's.

Everybody knows how I feel on this topic, but if YSB had a serious representation for SF2 on a regular basis I'd probably participate. However I'm pretty inflexible about what I'd like to see.  :P

Dreamcast ST
OzHadou has 2 PS1/2 -> Dreamcast converters I'd be happy to place into the hands of the ST community for this exercise. We don't need Dreamcasts for tournaments any more so I'm happy to donate them to this cause.

Having said this I will neither endorse nor support ST on Dreamcast. My own Dreamcast crashes all the time and I can't see the value in replacing or repairing it. I have no interest being involved in a game that I cannot play at home.

Thank you, that is good news.

Yeah what I am thinking is that, because we have GGPO for Super Turbo, we all play online there for the most part, DC is the closest thing to the arcade port, without having all the hassles of a real Arcade Machine.

DC is easy for me to cart around from place to place, from state to state it's a small console, plug in and play, but obviously the real big issue as Ziggy mentioned what happens if it breaks? (order one online, another second hand console), wait for it to arrive, but a supported system like a PS3, Xbox beaks?, well you can walk down the road and buy one of the street, or just another one, also the problem for Dreamcast is that the system has been dead for over a decade now, it's an unrealistic, the system breaks or crashes, basically the competition is off, people who traveled across Australia to participate, will suffer, the tournament will suffer the reputation, people will complain, it's just very unprofessional. I might be sounding like I am jumping to extremes here, but it's already started to happen.

The Supergun set up, I really appreciate the organizers efforts, you guys spent good money on the equipment, but for the community it doesn't work, it doesn't work for OHN, from the venue and the organizers point of view and the players, spectators, general public,  it looks unprofessional, wires are hanging out, the soldering iron is being used, people are pulling their hair out, all these stresses that should never happen, the system is cutting out mid way through a game. This can be avoided, I am saying this because I care, I respect the organizers, Kyokugen, Jarop, Kisou, all the boys, much respect and props to you, and I know you mean well.

People were shaking their heads, and laughing, and it frustrates me because I know the boys worked hard to get it all going.

First up people need to understand there's no need for another "Remixed vs. Classic" debate. That's been done to death and since HDR offers both and neither is rubbish there's no reason to go on about this. If the majority want classic (which BTW is very close to Dreamcast, which in turn is very close to arcade ST) then so be it.

As vlade says, the reality is that HDR is commercially available on current hardware. It's reliable, it's accessible, it's affordable and it's commercially viable.

BINGO! yep, and I stand by that comment Ziggy has made as well, it's just more realistic approach, it is one of the reasons HDR was made as well, to make it accessible to the public, and for Tournaments as well, as far as I remember the last HDR comp at OHN also had by far the biggest turn out than recent years, I think 50+ from memory, plus the finals were displayed on the big screen as well, we had atmosphere, we also actually had a crowed watching us all, we had a lot of hype, which is something I have not seen at a SF2 comp in a long while, and it is disappointing and sad to see.

A tiny compromise is all that stands in the way for ST. I hope people are getting closer to making that compromise. We will see.

Yeah I have made that compromise already, I want to see HDR on the main stage again, it's where it belongs IMO, and I will run HDR next year at OHN, there will be people to help me out, so if this what it takes to made SF2 big again, so be it. Guys I am as big of a fan of ST than the next guy, I love the game, it's my favorite game, and I work hard at it, though I am also realistic as well.

The way I see, do we want to be stuck in the back corner behind the curtains, where nobody is cheering for us, or! do we want to be relevant? :) I am trying to help the community here, for the long run, it's the only way we are going to stay alive I feel.

Best of luck to vlade for trying to make inroads here. I hope his efforts will not go unappreciated by the Australian ST players. :)

Thank you, I will try my best :) It's all up for debate here, I am voicing my opinion on the matter, we need to talk about this, work it out, we have to find a way, of course not everybody is going to be happy, but if we want the scene to be relevant, we need to be open minded and learn , constantly learning.





Offline jarop

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 04:03:47 PM »
I'll do my best to stop this from turning into an ST vs. HDR thread, but there are a number of issues that need to be taken into consideration as a community as we make a decision regarding the way forward.

Whether it be Dreamcast, HDR, PS2 or whatever else, ports will never be true to arcade ST. As the Supergun is the only option we have available that runs true arcade ST, any other avenues are ports and should be treated as such (of course depending on the stance of the community this may not be an issue).

We also must be mindful of the fact that not all communities have a Darve at their disposal to maintain and run the Supergun hardware. I believe the point Vlade made about the tournament looking untidy and unprofessional at OHN was partially due to the stage being an absolute bomb of an area throughout the weekend due to hardware being chopped and changed around the place and the tournament judges running around like madmen for other competitors in tournaments. This was our first OHN running the hardware and I believe it was run fairly successfully. There were no major issues with the Supergun as most people were able to soft reset or just kill off the previous character in between matches and this didnít hold things up for too long (According to Challonge we were ~45 minutes faster than last year and we did have more matches).

Could we also throw into the mix the possibility of running multiple platforms for different events? i.e. to keep it simple at locals we run Classic Mode where Xboxes are already present but at ďregionalsĒ or larger events we bring out the Superguns. The Sydney guys are purists at heart and want to play ST in the most true form possible, but we are also mindful of the fact that this may not be the most viable way forward if the scene is to grow. Dave has done a fantastic job on the Superguns and they no doubt possess the ability to hold as the tournament standard (which I believe is the case for most hardcore ST scenes in the US) but I do believe the points raised in regards to accessibility with Dreamcasts are valid as well.

Personally, I think we can go a number of different ways, but ultimately itís going to come down to unity within our community to make this a successful endeavour. Too many times have smaller fighting game communities (see: Soul Calibur, Smash etc.) have let themselves fizzle out because of disagreement amongst their players and I think our first priority is finding a solution that everybody is happy with in order to keep the scene unified.

This is my stance on the issue and I believe most of the Sydney guys feel more or less the same. If people see any flaws in where i'm coming from, please rip my argument. Like most of you I just want the best way forward for our game.

If we keep our options open and experiment a little I think we can find a compromise that fits everyone.

Personally I think Classic mode, GGPO and Supergun are the way, but this decision will come down to the player base.
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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 08:22:12 PM »
First of all this ^

Second I am not trying to start any flame wars just expressing my opinion and trying to make constructive arguments.
 
I howl heartedly agree with Jarop on the issue of superguns and arcade cabinets being the way to go. CPS2 arcade boards are the only true way to play ST. This has nothing to do with graphics, backgrounds, sprites, music or any other surface level bitching that goes on about HDR classic mode. The fact of the matter is that HDR classic modes game play is not Arcade ST pure and simple. The game runs significantly faster than arcade ST. I spent the last 2 years in HDR classic mode training room and when I played at EVO last year on superguns I have found that all of my safe-jump timings where off. I can do DeeJays MGU TOD in HDR classic mode but not in arcade ST because I piano to quickly due to the HDR classic mode game speed. Also doing DeeJays other TOD/BnB corssup mk, c.lp, c.lp, s.mp xx dread kicks have to be performed much faster in HDR, when I first started practicing that combo in GGPO/my DC copy I found that I kept on getting fireball cancel instead of dread kick. I was doing the combo too quickly. These are just some examples that I have found with my character.

Like Ziggy said the sprites, music and backgrounds are completely irrelevant, ST hasnít survived all these years because of those things, itís the game play that matters and itís the game play that we should be trying to preserve, hence why I am a strong supporter of superguns. At this point in time we have not had a 100% accurate port of ST or even a 99% port and until that day comes I will always be for the supergun route.

Now I understand that not every scene will have their own Vlade, kyokugen, BeefyGoodness, burleybrawler etcÖ to provide them with CPS2 setups for majors or let alone local tourneys. Melbourne is in that position at the moment but where there is a will there is a way, we are a community and I think if we work together and we help each other out we can make that happen for the communities that have the interest and the drive.

I think the majors such as OHN, SS, BAM and LanSmash should try to get supergun setups for ST. For local events I can understand people not brining supergun setups because they can be awkward to transport etc. As for supergun setups not looking ďprofessionalĒ well thatís a matter of opinion. To me someone having the dedication to bring a supergun setup to a major to play the game in its pure form shows love and dedication for the game, especially when itís a game thatís been around for 18 years.

I personally will try to resurrect ST in Melbourne, hopefully with some help from kyokugen, playsia and burleybrawler this will be sooner than later. Until I can get a supergun setup I will be taking my DC and my 360 copies to locals to drive up interest. I know there are people in the community who want to play.

Ok I have rambled on long enough.
Your problem is you don't have any rhythm!

Offline Ziggy

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 09:24:48 PM »
BTW I feel I should probably clarify who I am when I cast my vote in favour of commercially available console ports over endangered arcade hardware.

I first played ST in 2003 on the Dreamcast console. That was my first return to SF2 after playing SSF2 on the SNES. I'm old enough to be from the era when SF2 dominated the arcades but I was never much of an arcade gamer at the time. So when people start talking about the "purity" of arcade ST I'm understanding enough to respect that differences exist but given my background that understanding doesn't stretch enough to see the value in pursuing a dead platform.

For me there was never an arcade ST cabinet to play back when the game came out. Arcade SF2 was already dying off in Wollongong. Here MK and Killer Instinct had taken over, and shortly after that arcades began their long, painful decline. So my passion for SF2 isn't tied to any arcade version; certainly not to the extent that it is for people lucky enough to have enjoyed an arcade ST cabinet back in the day.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that arcade ST is "no good" - far from it. I can only rely on second hand assessments because my total hours of arcade ST is tiny relative to the total hours I've logged on a broader range of SF2 ports over the many years I've been playing. I don't dispute that differences exist, nor do I dispute that the differences could affect gameplay in a serious way. I'm simply not good enough to do anything but take people's word on that front.

What I can say is that, objectively speaking, if you take one version of a game to be the "best" one, then all ports/derivatives of that version must fall into one of 2 categories:
  • The port/version is different enough that it's competitively unplayable; or
  • The port/version is close enough that it's valid for competitive play.
Obviously anything in group 1 should be discarded (e.g. CvS2 on the Xbox). Anything in group 2 warrants consideration.

I don't doubt that speed differences matter, but unless we're talking massive/game breaking speed differences I don't see how that invalidates a port. I mean we had to deal with PAL 50 hertz for years. Have we become such perfectionists that we'll discourage new players by picking a platform based on small speed differences, no matter how hard it is to access or how easy it is for us as players to just, y'know, adapt like we always have to for any new game?

What I'm trying to say (in my usual rambling way) is that I'm 100% in favour of not wasting time picking up a game that's competitively rubbish. However given my background with SF2 (and tournaments in general) it's a real struggle to accept that the future of ST lies in clinging to a past that, physically and commercially, is on the brink of extinction. That was actually why I'd hoped people would use Remix as an opportunity to clean the slate and give SF2 a fresh start. Being rebalanced (good or bad, doesn't matter - not every update to SF2 was better nor perfect) meant we could take the ST differences as "something new" rather than a failure to perfectly replicate the old. But a lot of people were hell-bent on crucifying Remix for reasons I can only speculate upon. I think it's safe to say that opportunity has been exterminated.

Now we face the same problem we did before Remix - ST's lifespan and tournament acceptance is tied to the fate of the CPS2 hardware on which it was birthed. The trouble is that lifespan ran out over 10 years ago. I've come to believe that the ST community will take death before dishonour, and that's their call to make. As someone that came into ST "dirty" or "unpure" if you will I don't share the same devotion to the source. In that respect I feel I represent a strange demographic - someone with a lot of SF2 history but little arcade history, and a perspective that is more sympathetic towards finding new blood that the traditionalists tend to be.

Anyhow, like spidercarnage and everyone else talking here I'm not looking for an argument. TBH I burned that out of me after OHN8 when the HDR backlash was in full swing. I'm content to put forward my thoughts for wider contemplation without the need to rabidly defend my thinking. :D

Offline fkuspencer

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 09:39:42 PM »
Spidercarnage, I'm pretty sure that HDR in both classic and remix mode are slower than the international standard of ST. Regardless of that, you were not used to the speed and it has indeed thrown me off unless I use someone stupid like Chun Li. lol

Here's the link if anyone else is interested to do some reading.

I don't mind seeing the return GGPO ST tournaments. :)
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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 10:01:03 PM »
Spidercarnage, I'm pretty sure that HDR in both classic and remix mode are slower than the international standard of ST. Regardless of that, you were not used to the speed and it has indeed thrown me off unless I used someone stupid like Chun Li. lol

Here's the link if anyone else is interested to do some reading.

I don't mind seeing the return GGPO ST tournaments. :)
yeh. We should do some tournaments like the Americans do on ggpo.
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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 11:48:40 PM »
@Ziggy
I guess itís up to the Australian ST community to agree on what the standard for ST should be and then stick to it. But itís kind of hard when the US seems to have completely reverted to CPS2 ST. At EVO last year they had 40 entries for ST and 5 for HDR. The majority of the US majors ran CPS2 ST over HDR classic mode. Japan speaks for its self where they didnít even get HDR until last year I believe. Our community is relatively small compared to overseas thought so we cant discount that.

I donít think this has much to do with ďdirtyĒ or ďunpureĒ or weather any of use played ST in the arcades or on console. Itís more about what is the international community playing and what are we going to play? Is it feasible what they are doing and will we adopt it for our community or do we do our own thing? We seem to adopt most of the US community standards as they as usual have the most influence on us.

Honestly this is something that I have been thinking about for quite a while, how do we attempt to resurrect ST in Australia and what path do we take?

@Ayinashe
I remember reading that back in the day but I thought they patched it after that post was made to fix the game speed? It was a mistake on my part to practice so much in HDR training mode when I have 2 perfectly good working DCís. O well live and learn.
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Offline fkuspencer

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 12:37:30 AM »


Can't find the discussion thread that was mentioned in the comments though. I've got the post OHN sniffles. :(
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Offline Ziggy

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 08:45:38 AM »
Very good points spidercarnage. International standards do need to be given weight in our community's considerations.

I guess itís up to the Australian ST community to agree on what the standard for ST should be and then stick to it. But itís kind of hard when the US seems to have completely reverted to CPS2 ST. At EVO last year they had 40 entries for ST and 5 for HDR. The majority of the US majors ran CPS2 ST over HDR classic mode. Japan speaks for its self where they didnít even get HDR until last year I believe. Our community is relatively small compared to overseas thought so we cant discount that.
I assume HDR at Evo 2011 was run using Remix mode (otherwise why even have it alongside arcade ST). I think we can all agree pushing Remix mode is a futile exercise at this point in time.

In terms of Evo support, consider this: afaik HDR had over 1,000 entries at Evo 2010. I'm fairly certain is was the 2nd largest tournament game behind SSF4. So to go from 1,000 players to 40 is hardly a triumph IMO. That's more like suicide. While I realise that massive number was more about HDR being an official Evo game, if BYO arcade ST at Evo can't even crack 100 people then it's basically impossible to take that US standard seriously.

It's even sadder when you consider the DIY ST tournament at OHNX had around 30 people. Our tiny nationals getting 75% of the Evo ST numbers is not a good sign for US ST at all. The fact remains that the arrival of HDR on XBLA and PSN pushed Evo numbers for SF2 to their highest levels by far for 2 years straight. The game was pushed out to make way for newer games (of which there are many these days) however you have to wonder how much the community's toxic attitude had to do with their decision (considering how mainstream Evo's profile has become).

As for Japan, since they never got HDR they have no choice to make. What they do have is the highest concentration of ST cabinets in the world by far and a gaming culture where going out to the arcades to play is both practical and typical. The US doesn't have that anymore and neither do we. We can conform to the Japanese standard but we'd be doing it for reasons unrelated to growing the scene for SF2 here. My point is simply that (1) Japan's standard just can't work here if ST is to be "reborn" as a major tournament game, and (2) the numbers clearly show that the US has stubbornly chosen the wrong standard and basically killed-off their once-mighty ST scene in the process.


At the end of the day the real problem I have with arcade/Dreamcast ST vs. HDR Classic mode is commercial and competitive credibility. Imagine you want to introduce a player to the ST tournament scene. You show him the game, maybe point it out at OHN or SS, and he plays a bit and likes it. He says he wants to pick the game up and train for the next tournament. The conversation would go something like this (where I'll assume we can't endorse emulating ROMs for legal reasons):

New guy: "I like this game. I'm so sick of (insert modern SF nonsense game here). I want to make this my main tournament game."

Ziggy: "That's great news! I'm happy to share any resources I have that'll help you get started."

New guy: "Great! First up, I need the game at home to practice."

Ziggy: "Do you have a Dreacmcast?"

New guy: "No, what's that?"

Ziggy: "Hmm nevermind. How about an Xbox 360 or PS3?"

New guy: "Yes of course, I have an Xbox 360."

Ziggy: "Well you can buy HDR on XBLA and practice with that. Be sure to use Classic mode with speed (whatever it is)."

New guy: "OK great! So I can then BYO pad/stick for the next tournament?"

Ziggy: "Well no, because we'll be using the arcade/supergun for the tournament."

New guy: "Umm... why?"

Ziggy: "Because the version you'll have at home is so bad we can't run tournaments on it."

New guy: "Right... so you want me to invest my time in a tournament game where I can't train and compete on the same version? And the only version I can train on is so bad you can't use it for tournaments?"

Ziggy: "Correct."

New guy: "Umm... nevermind, I'll just play SFxT. See ya."


THIS is the future of arcade ST in the US/Australia as far as I'm concerned, and as you can see from the Evo numbers I'm not being absurd in the slightest.

Honestly this is something that I have been thinking about for quite a while, how do we attempt to resurrect ST in Australia and what path do we take?
Yes I've also had this on my mind for a few years as well, and you're 100% correct: a decision has to be made so that everyone can move forward.

Given that Capcom has just announced their plans for the 25th anniversary of SF and nowhere does it mention an arcade perfect port of ST is on the way (no surprise there), it's safe to say that the lack of an arcade perfect ST port isn't changing any time soon. So arcade ST vs. Dreamcast ST vs. HDR Classic mode will continue to be the decision that determines the future of competitive ST both here and in many other countries (excluding Japan of course).

TBH I felt that the decision had been made, and that decision was arcade ST. However both the US and Australia have pushed ahead with that objective for a couple of years now in the post-HDR world and IMHO, all the data suggests that it's going nowhere. Even if ST doubles at Evo this year that'll still be woefully smaller than any official ST Evo tournament from the past 12 years. Until the community understands how awful that is I fear that SF2 is going to stay where the community has put it, which is a pretty tragic end for not only (IMO) the greatest 2D fighting game ever made, but also the game that spawned an entire genre.

I know people want ST to be the timeless "chess" of competitive fighting games. But people have to realise that chess is a turn-based game where the pieces and board can be represented in many ways that don't damage the gameplay (so to speak). Since ST is a real-time game wrapped in electronics, which over time become obsolete or fall into disrepair, we have to be prepared to bend a bit otherwise the ST scene's lifespan will be constrained to that of the hardware on which the game resides. I know it's not what people want to hear but we're stuck with no arcade-perfect ST ports (note that 3S has suffered just as badly) and we've no choice but to try and deal with that.

[BTW it's wonderful that we can talk about this in such a civilised manner. On just about any other forum this would have turned into a flamewar within the first 5 posts or so. :P]

Offline Peter

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 09:20:43 AM »
Who cares about differences in games speed? Dinosaurs?

Does Capcom care? I think not.

For me, if I am going to play its got to be HDR remix mode, its the freshest/newest version.

Do people still play SF4 Vanilla? Do people still play AE vanilla? No they play the newest version AE2012.

Is Remix broken? Well vanilla SF4AE was broken with Yun and Yang but that did not Tournaments from making it the version of choice once it came out for home consoles.

So for me HDR -> remix mode otherwise I will keep investing time in Umvc3.
Canberra Fighting Game League Tournament Organiser.

Offline jarop

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 10:22:05 AM »
For me, if I am going to play its got to be HDR remix mode, its the freshest/newest version.

The argument of HDR vs ST can be saved for another day, but ultimately those interested in playing HDR remixed don't have any issues as there's only one available version of the game.

Going back to Ziggy's point regarding resources for new players, what are the issues with pushing GGPO as an online resource? To get new players to continually switch from ST to HDR would no doubt discourage them and there is a strong community attached to the GGPO platform, so I'm just curious about the implications of the software from an offline event's standpoint.

Also, as we look for a way forward, I feel that if we have an idea of what each scene has to work with as far as gear goes, we can see what we have to work with before we pick and choose our desired platform. Ultimately the best decision is going to be decided by what we have available,  to see what we have and are able to work with.

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Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 10:35:58 AM »
Going back to Ziggy's point regarding resources for new players, what are the issues with pushing GGPO as an online resource?
An excellent question jarop.

The issues with pushing GGPO as an online resource are that, when all's said and done, ST on GGPO is illegal. Downloading the ST ROM and playing it via an emulator is an act of copyright infringement against Capcom unless you already own the ST board, and as well all know there simply aren't enough ST boards in existence for every GGPO player to be participating legally. No public-facing tournament scene can promote or endorse such a solution, nor can it hook into potential sponsorship under such a platform.

As an aside I've never been convinced that emulated ST, GGPO or otherwise, is any more "arcade perfect" than the various ports. While the game itself is the "real" one, the emulation layer is not guaranteed to replicate the CPS2 hardware flawlessly. Even if someone does fine-tune the emulator to perfectly replicate ST running on the CPS2 hardware, the end-user usually has to micro-manage the config of the emulator on their home PC because no 2 PCs tend to be built exactly the same or display the same performance. No tournament wants to deal with PC configurations unless they have no other choice (one reason why fighting game tournaments favour consoles over PCs). The end result is far too much work for a scene that expects to simply pop a game into a system and press the "ON" button in order to enjoy the "true" version of a game.