Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback

[AtomicX]

If I remember correctly UltraChen has encouraged people to try ST on GGPO when talking about the game on stream, also Shoryuken advertises the American King of GGPO tournaments as well as advertising GGPO on the ST wiki. Is it really that bad to encourage people to use GGPO? I'm sure capcom knows about GGPO and they would of tried to shut it down by now if it was such a bad thing. You can't play Street Fighter 2 hyper fighting or 3rd Strike anymore on GGPO because they are available on xbl yet you can still play super turbo, obviously because remix is not an exact port etc etc.

[jarop]

^ This.

I should also clarify that I'd only push GGPO for online as (legal issues aside) it's the best resource currently available.

[Ziggy]

I have a vague recollection that Tony Cannon pulled ST out of GGPO when HDR arrived. I might be wrong about that but it sounds familiar.

It's true that there's a lot of support for GGPO ST on SRK. Capcom obviously has no interest in pursuing the matter right now or they'd be keeping it quiet. However there's no GGPO ST at Evo, nor will there ever be. I assume the goal here is to make ST a viable tournament game at the highest level, and that can't happen with emulated arcade ROMs, GGPO or otherwise.

So yes, you can push GGPO to whatever legal limits Capcom is prepared to tolerate. But you can't expect many people (if any) to jump on board and endorse something as ghetto as a tournament scene built around an emulated arcade ROM. It all comes back to the primary objective. If this is just about playing arcade ST no matter the cost, then the platform can be whatever you want it to be. If the objective is to bring ST to a wider audience then I'm telling you straight that the arcade version cannot and will not achieve that. It doesn't bother me which way people decide to go. I just want the decision to be made in an information-rich environment.

[BeefyGoodness]

Having played ST in cabinets at arcades when I was smaller I find myself mostly nostalgic when discussing playing ST.

I think the reality is the game is over regarding making the competitive scene grow without removing the hurdle of access.

Being upset that timings are different with what you've practised on (arcade to HDR) isn't so much of a problem of the US having a standard as ziggy has mentioned 40 players doesn't even qualify as a scene.  If they were serious about growing the scene then they would move everyone over to HD: Classic.  The unwillingness to change has caused this fracture and will result in ST disappearing faster.

I believe that the majority are OG's playing for nostalgia, not for the competition.

I don't think that's a bad thing but I haven't played ST (arcade) since last year at OHN.  I've played HDR in a casual situation one time.  Compare that to SF and Marvel and now the new breed of games being released and the times when this game will actually be put on during a meet up and played will be next to 0.  I don't see this situation improving with time.  So IMO ST is never again going to rise back up to even close to the 1000 HDR competitors from EVO last year.

The argument to play ST (or close enough equivalents) is that current games just aren't as good (or are boring) to play. 
I suppose this is where the HDR versus ST argument is actually valid.  IS HDR or HD classic good enough to fill this void for a sustainable number of players?

Personally I will play either over ST if it allows more people to play and brings new competition as otherwise the stagnation will killing the whole thing.

[spidercarnage]

Some good discussion going on and I think we are pretty much flushing out the issues. Let me just clarify about ST and EVO last year. The reason why there were only 40 entrants in the tournament was because it was 40 bucks to enter. There was absolutely no advertising or announcements for the tournament it was done on the spot with people who were in the DIY section. A 40 dollar entry fee turned off a lot of people and top players. Again that’s pretty much irrelevant for what we are discussing here. So I am dropping this.

GGPO is good and bad.

The Good:
At the moment it’s pretty much the only place where you can get consistent (local and international) competition for ST. Decent net code. It’s free.

The bad:
If something goes wrong or doesn’t work out of the box working out the bugs can be interesting. Finding a stick to work with windows can be a challenge sometimes, these days most sticks work under windows.

These are just some examples that I can think of the top of my head. We probably should have had this discussion in person at OHN last week 

[AtomicX]

Looks like they are running an ST tournament at evo using arcade and superguns. (Sorry if already posted).
http://www.kuroppi.com/2012/02/15/7775/


Why not do an Australian GGPO tournament and the players with the most points fight it off on a supergun at a major?

[Kyle (The Guile)]

Can you stream off a supergun? Also, can you put it on a projector easily?

If not, then no one is gonna be watching it, and you guys are gonna be stuck behind the curtain

[spidercarnage]

You can stream off a super gun and you can put it on a projector. Like most things you need to buy the right spliters and hardware.

[17yearoldwarrior.]

yeah you can stream of a supergun, not sure how hard it would be though.
imo it doesnt matter if no one watches, it matters whos gonna play it.

[Kyle (The Guile)]

yeah you can stream of a supergun, not sure how hard it would be though.
imo it doesnt matter if no one watches, it matters whos gonna play it.

With no audience, you're never gonna get new players though.

[AtomicX]

Just point a camera at the monitor. 

[Peter]

Can I ask what are the exact reasons for ST over HDR remix?

I personal devoted 2006 to try to play ST on the PS2 and DC, and in that year of playing mornings before work, weekends and after work with Beefy and FAB I really didn't fair to well, I didn't really get that much better for the time and effort I put in. Input requirements for DP was way to strict imo and hampered my game for along time before I got the execution down.

When HDR came out, it felt familiar and fresh at the same time. The time I put into the game was rewarded to as I felt I was actually getting better. To me it got rid of a big barrier.

If we are determined with ST and GGPO, I know I will not bother. The only old SF I'd think about playing would be SFA2.

[Vladan]

Why not do an Australian GGPO tournament and the players with the most points fight it off on a supergun at a major?

Yeah tried that many times, I've been involved in every single one of these GGPO Aussie comps, from the Kailera days 7 years ago to now (GGPO).

People don't commit, many are no show, like half of the entrants don't show up on time, forget, get the days mixed up, or are way too late, people often cannot connect to players, there are many delays. Getting folks to commit to offline SF2 comp is hard enough (defaults left right and center), try it online... it's really not fun. We would require committed and dedicated ST players, and in Australia there really isn't that many, I could probably count the lot on both hands, not including thumbs, maybe thumbs if I'm lucky (but I doubt it).

If the comp is small like an 8 man bracket, and people actually give a shit and are committed, then it has potential to be smooth, but if you want anything greater like a 32 man bracket, with folks who are casual players, or new comers... it's not possible. It's ST we are talking about, getting online SSF4 was impossible, look what happened to the last online event...

[Vladan]

Can I ask what are the exact reasons for ST over HDR remix?

Honestly, I don't know. For me ST is great, HDR is great too. I'm here for the competition, I go where the competition is, and that is why I play SSF4 full time as well.

In Australia ST is good for the casual scene and the dedicated players, which is not many at all.  I think, but if you want to get serious then HDR is the route or go to Japan. HDR can be accessed by everybody in the country at all times, everybody has a setup at their disposal, it's not niche, all you need is a PS3 or Xbox, and a TV, bang your in it's easy, it's fun, and it's competitive, it's marketable, it works for the public, Ziggy already covered that.

[002]

Ok so here's my opinion for what it's worth...
I like (and prefer over any other option) the supergun setup but I agree with Vlade that it needs a bit of tidying.

The problem I have with the supergun setup at the moment is inflexibility with sticks which can be resolved according to kyokugen and the general mess involved with wires etc. With that said I think that it's probably in ST players' best interests to pursue this avenue rather than HDR.

The problem with HDR is just doubt for me. Ignoring the fact that it looks different and all that crap; when I play it I just can't help but think to myself *is this functioning as it should be?*. The question that ST players need to ask themselves is "Do you want to play this game as close as possible to how it was originally intended?" I am confident that the answer from the vast majority of people who competed on Saturday in the ST DIY would be "Yes"

I don't think that HDR has the pulling power to get new players interested. In my eyes it's really just a fan-service for people who already enjoyed ST and if you ask most people who already enjoy ST if they prefer HDR I'd really be interested to know the responses. Will switching to HDR bring a horde of enthusiastic new players to the game?