Author Topic: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback  (Read 7806 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ziggy

  • Administrator
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ozhadou.net
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2012, 09:09:16 PM »
I don't think that HDR has the pulling power to get new players interested. In my eyes it's really just a fan-service for people who already enjoyed ST and if you ask most people who already enjoy ST if they prefer HDR I'd really be interested to know the responses. Will switching to HDR bring a horde of enthusiastic new players to the game?
The cool thing about Evo embracing HDR as an official game (if only for 2 years) is that this experiment has already been conducted on the biggest possible stage and the answer was very clear: yes, yes it did. ST at Evo before HDR never pulled 1,000+ competitors. HDR at Evo pulled 1,000+ competitors 2 years running afaik. As soon as the community axed HDR, SF2 went back into its shell. So yes, I'd say running with a version people can actually purchase and easily play appears to make a difference.

[Some fun trivia: We shouldn't neglect that SF4 helped to make those numbers possible in the first place. But even so, if ST was still only run on Dreamcasts then Evo wouldn't have run it alongside SF4, nor would so many people have joined at the time.

I'd mention that HDR at OHN8 had more entries than any other ST tournament at OHN but those numbers are tainted because a lot of people who didn't like HDR entered just for the raffle tickets on offer. :P]

The problem with HDR is just doubt for me. Ignoring the fact that it looks different and all that crap; when I play it I just can't help but think to myself *is this functioning as it should be?*.
I suspect this is pretty similar to what a lot of hardcore ST players think when it comes to HDR and ST on Dreamcast. The problem is that people go in demanding arcade ST perfection from these ports. We've all seen the evidence - no console port is identical to arcade ST. I think it's time to just accept that they're different - they function "properly" to the extent that if I play [insert port here] at home then it'll be the same when I play that same version at a tournament. We shouldn't keep expecting more than that.

The question that ST players need to ask themselves is "Do you want to play this game as close as possible to how it was originally intended?" I am confident that the answer from the vast majority of people who competed on Saturday in the ST DIY would be "Yes"
I agree, that's the question and answer ST players have been coming up with since before HDR was even being made.

The price you pay for turning this ideal into a demand is that you're telling the world that the only version of SF2 worth playing is the one that a very small number of people can get their hands on. The only way around the scarcity of ST boards (and the hassles of superguns) is to use emulation. Without a legal waiver from Capcom themselves it's awkward to endorse that, but assuming we had one then there's still all the issues around which emulator to use, what the settings have to be, and how your PC needs to be configured to produce the "arcade perfect" ST experience. Suddenly the players have to dive into a world of configuration and shady downloads just to play the thing. That's a big ask when other games only ask you to turn on the console and drop the disc in/boot up the downloaded game.

Also consider the problem that if 1,000 people did turn up at Evo to play in an arcade ST side tournament, where are the 25-50 ST boards going to come from to facilitate this? AFAIK nobody has ever seen that many ST boards in one place. (Maybe all the arcades in Tokyo combined could do it? I have no idea.) You're basically condemning the scene to the old men who've decided not to move on to other games.

Which brings us neatly back to Beefy's point about this being an exercise in nostalgia rather than competition. As I said before I don't carry the nostalgia for ST that others do because of my history as an SF2 player. As such I guess I suspect it's easier for me to step back and look at the matter from a more objective position than most. Throw in the years I've spent organising and studying tournaments and the result is that I think Beefy is spot-on in his summation.

IMHO the ST community doesn't really want an ST tournament scene, or even an ST revival. What they want is an ST reunion, and they want it on the terms they remember from the "good old days". When all's said and done there's nothing wrong with this; I firmly believe people should pursue the things that make them happy. I just want to give SF2 the opportunity to live on as a serious competitive game, which means no more of the bickering and divisions that came about with HDR, and no more clinging to platforms that are not viable competitively.

[If you want a little more insight on what that last point means, you can read this article I wrote a while back on the topic.]

Thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far. FWIW I wouldn't even be piping up if I didn't think there was an opportunity for SF2 to find a place in major tournament line-ups. I think that with SF4 fizzling out, UMvC3 being "too crazy" for some people, and SFxT looking to repeat most of the things that have turned people off SF4 (with some new lameness thrown in for good measure) there are quite a few people out there looking for more SF but not more of this modern SF business. Now is probably a very good time to offer them an alternative. But these are people with Xbox 360s and PS3s on which they've played SF4. You can't expect them to pick up GGPO ST in a hurry when so many new fighters are on offer. You have to be prepared to meet these guys half-way. But as mentioned above I don't think that's the intention of most ST player to begin with, and if I'm right about that then I'm 100% happy being ignored here.  ;D

Offline Gizzle

  • Forum regular
    • View Profile
    • http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Guoguodi
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 11:05:28 AM »
The 1000+ players entering HDR at Evo is a little off -- it was actually around 300. Which is still quite impressive, but a large part of that was thanks to SF4 and the general resurgence of interest in the FG community.

As far as using emulators to run offline tournaments, I don't think it's ever been done and I agree with Ziggy that not only is it legally a very questionable move, but it's also quite amateurish and unprofessional. On top of that, all emulators including FinalBurn Alpha which is used in GGPO have inherent input lag (more than consoles and a lot more than arcade).

I think failing to reach any consensus tends to hurts our already small community as a whole. For me personally so long as there aren't any glaring lag issues then I'm willing to play on any setup including HDR.

Offline Ziggy

  • Administrator
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ozhadou.net
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 11:45:13 AM »
The 1000+ players entering HDR at Evo is a little off -- it was actually around 300. Which is still quite impressive, but a large part of that was thanks to SF4 and the general resurgence of interest in the FG community.
Thanks for correcting my fictitious number. :)

I recalled it being the 2nd biggest game one year behind SF4 (as claimed by Mr Wizard iirc), but obviously I was taking an exaggerated guess at the entry numbers. :(

Offline Maz

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2012, 10:14:34 AM »
an opportunity for SF2 to find a place in major tournament line-ups. I think that with SF4 fizzling out, UMvC3 being "too crazy" for some people, and SFxT looking to repeat most of the things that have turned people off SF4 (with some new lameness thrown in for good measure) there are quite a few people out there looking for more SF but not more of this modern SF business. Now is probably a very good time to offer them an alternative

With ^this and...

I think failing to reach any consensus tends to hurts our already small community as a whole. For me personally so long as there aren't any glaring lag issues then I'm willing to play on any setup including HDR.

...^this, the baseline for the conversation is set.

ST is on the books, now how to maximize and realize.

Speaking of consensus, I'm suggesting this:

  • Community leaders organize the meetups for their region on whatever platform they can arrange.
  • In Canbera Vladan brings the community together with Dreamcast and XBox.
  • In Sydney Kyo and BB bring the community together with Superguns, Dreamcast, XBox
  • In Melbourne Spidercarnage brings the community together with XBox and later, Superguns.


^ The differences are not significant compared to the significance of not playing at all. Or compared to the significance of not getting enough matchup experience.

  • The hosts of the annual tournament will select the platform they desire. Nationwide consensus is not an issue. Think -> "When in Russia...". Superguns or HDR I don't care so long as I can arrive at the event at simply play all day.


And finally,
  • The online format is GGPO. This is the glue holding all the communities together. Anyone who has access to this forum has by default, access to a PC and therefore access to GGPO. Difficulty in setting up is not an issue in this day and age. Especially for the younger technologically advanced generation. Legal endorsement is not problem because its not 'endorsed' per se. XBL vs PS3 for online is too dichotomous, whereas PC is the common denominator and has the benefit of already being established as an arena.


^ Failing all of this, I'm happy to just play classic mode on HDR 360 - but asking for a nationwide consensus on this is too big of an ask... the "When is Russia" model is the best contender and the differences between versions AFAIK are not significant compared to the difference of not playing at all.

Offline kyokugen

  • Event Organisers
  • *
    • View Profile
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2012, 12:44:31 PM »
A lot of interesting opinions regarding the best platform for ST. It's encouraging and I agree with most people in this thread that there is a need to have the game in some way or form, given the current state of new generation fighters.

I'm actually surprised how little actual information there is out there aside from logistics, so perhaps will weigh in at this point. Apologies in advance for the length of this post; there is just a lot to address.

HDR vs ST
This post will not address the issue of HDR vs ST. Please keep that in another discussion, but I will say for the record that no HDR player has impressed me in their own game, despite vocalised support that it is the better game. My opinion will probably remain unchanged due to the nature and design behind the game, but that kind of detail should probably be in another thread.

Background
Onto the background. Like Ziggy, I never really played ST in the arcade or were around for the 'good old days'. I started playing ST on GGPO in 2008, and pretty much played it on a regular basis up til HDR came out. I have also played and experienced HDR both offline and online when it was released, and eventually dropped it, picking up SF4. To this day I am still occasionally on GGPO ST, and am keen to have more matches via that platform. I can't say the same about HDR. I am keen to have people playing ST as I find there is a lack of play for older titles and I genuinely feel that exposure to other fighting games can really help people gain more perspective in the newer titles today. Super Turbo serves as a fine entry to learn this.

I have been bringing ST equipment in many forms offline both locally and interstate for the last few years. I have both run and participated in 3 offline ST tournaments via HDR, Dreamcast, and most recently Supergun. There is good reason for the changes my fellow organisers and I have made for each tournament, and I feel as a player and organiser, that each iteration over the years was both necessary and rewarding to represent ST in the best way possible, while also being feasible logistically.

At this point, I would like to address anyone who had issue with my setups over the weekend. I am not a case modder. These Superguns used at OHN were made to be functional with my limited case skills in mind, though they were guaranteed to work correctly and laglessly. Neither of the two I made had any issues over the weekend, and thus to me (and others) were/are a success. Prior to those models, I used my prototype cardboard box which broke down via rough handling (lots of equipment) on Friday, but since has generally been problem free over the last few months.

The Superguns seen on Satuday/Sunday are the first iteration, and even since the weekend, there have been improvements regarding PS1/2 controls (not ready a week ago because of stupid ethernet labelling!) and video capture. Once I have the optimal setup, then I will work on perfecting my case skills. As is, I am confident that even these iterations can travel and be solid for the future. Anyone thinking they were 'unprofessional' should really look at some of the other solutions around the world lol …

Consistency
By no means would I also endorse ST played via emulator on a PC, despite suggestions from others to do so in the past. I have always seen ROMs and GGPO as private. I have no intention of playing or running a tournament on a PC board and never had, despite suggestions from other players. I totally agree with Ziggy that there are too many factors involved with a PC setup. Therefore, I too, feel that consoles or superguns should be used over emulation.

Accuracy
HDR, even in classic mode, is not an option. A quick google search will reveal that the port suffers from much more than aesthetic issues, namely with its speed and input lag no matter what platform or monitors.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/comparison-of-hdr-versions-ps3-360-dc-cps2.81717/
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/comparison-of-hdr-versions-ps3-360-dc-cps2.81717/page-2#post-3498543
No matter what speed set in HDR or HDR classic mode, the speed will always be slower than JP3/US2 which is the world standard. 360 apparently has 7f of input lag, with the PS3 having an additional 1f. These points alone, regardless of any aesthetic or configuration issues is the reason why I feel it's a poor choice for offline ST, and most if not all fighting game communities around the world seem to agree.

That said, all ports, as Gizzle mentioned have some form of lag issue, with the Dreamcast being the least problematic. In terms of accuracy, it is definitely the better option, but in terms of reliability, Dreamcasts do have issues, namely the reset bug. This can generally be alleviated by doing the PSU pin bending trick before any event, and it worked fine when I ran it at OHN9.
http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/sega/dc-reset.htm

If Dreamcasts do not suffice, another unmentioned platform that could be used would be HSF2 Capcom Collection JP version, as not only are speeds consistent, but also the platform being much more stable compared to the Dreamcast. Despite assertions that it is a poor port with issues, almost all are fixed with the Capcom Collection version, and by holding Select when choosing the Super/X mode. This was the option for European tournaments a couple of years ago, but I suspect they may have moved on to Superguns too.

Accessibility/Community
If in the case, HDR would be used, as 360 version is the more 'accurate' version of the game, it would be adopted as standard. Using this platform as a standard (even despite all the port issues) has its own problems. Not everyone has access to a 360, and to play online, one must pay for XBox Live, which limits the base even further compared to playing on the PC. After all of this, players must use XBL and HDR to communicate and arrange matches, the former I personally find cumbersome for most if not all fighting titles on the platform, and the latter I recall being a glitched out process where simple things like finding empty lobbies was impossible in the initial build (instead the search would only return any lobby that was full!). HDR also contains pseudo GGPO code for the actual game, which most players would agree is inferior.

GGPO has the benefit of better communication between players; there are more effective and direct streams of communication available in this process too, with in game and lobby chat, as well as spectating/recording across the whole lobby, none of which is offered to the same level in HDR. The superior netcode in GGPO means Australian players can also play players in both Asia and the US. The code and platform are also continuously improving. The same can't be said about HDR.

The openness and persistence of ST GGPO is a testament to the complete failure HDR was, not only as a new game, but also as a faithful port of the original. The legality of playing the game in contrast to Capcom's, Shoryuken and Ponder's stances of it further strengthens this.

World Standard
For the above reasons, the trend across the world where the arcade scene is poor is to adopt Superguns. There are now numerous resources which one may use to research this process:
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/supergun-arcade-cps2-super-street-fighter-ii-turbo.119374/

The scene is also progressing and furthering developments for this platform offline. This includes, but is not limited to:
  • PS2 controllers w/remapping (Toodles' FGWidget converter, eTokki converter)
  • USB converters (Non 360, Undamned on SRK)
  • Consolised CPS2 systems (Same as above)
  • Cheaper superguns (a supergun from Arcadeforge with PSU and simple sync cleaner can be purchased for less than $200)
  • Playstation controller support on PCBs (MCCthulhu, Akishop PS360+)
Superguns are quickly becoming the definitive solution. I am also continually researching and developing Superguns myself for the optimal and most robust setups, and will gladly share any knowledge regarding the topic, especially considering the local interest (QLD and VIC organisers have already expressed their interest and preference to this platform).

My Recommendation
Of course, for the reasons above, my initial recommendation would be to use Superguns at majors. As I understand that at this point in time this may not be feasible, Dreamcasts would be the next option, or PS2 HSF2 in S/X modes. I feel that the two consolised ports should be used until Supergun tech is more established, and used with PS1/2 controllers, such that they may be used with Superguns.

For home use, I would recommend GGPO - which is and has been for the past 3~4 years been the current system for ST now anyway. I doubt anyone who has or will use GGPO would want to use classic mode on 360, considering the myriad benefits of the platform.

Finally, I've raised this issue earlier to some OzHadou staff but if you want to support the community and other games, the forum definitely should have a 'Other Fighting Games' forum. Currently, members are relegated to posting along side posts in the 'Random Discussion' forum, or, more likely, not posting at all. The fact that this has never existed since the forum upgrade needs to be addressed if and when a consensus is reached, although from the points above I feel the choice is pretty clear for both players and organisers.
ヽ(´ー`)ノ

Offline Gamogo

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2012, 01:46:24 PM »
http://forum.ozhadou.net/index.php?board=77.0

The underused Third Strike forum has been renamed to 'Other Fighting Games - General Discussion' which ought to satisfy the need for an area dedicated to those of you with more varied tastes.

Sing out if you feel it will need stickied threads and so on (i.e. for KOF, BB, etc). Also let me know if you want any existing posts merged into that forum (such as this one).
So keep your bankroll lottery eat your salad day deathbed motorcade.

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2012, 03:16:37 PM »
To those who are thinking of investing into supergun st...
Do not buy phoenixed cps2 game boards, they are not 100% authentic and they do indeed have errors. Also always change the battery of your game board as soon as u get it just to be safe. Running a phoenixed cps2 game on a arcade/supergun is just like running it on a bad emulator.
Please governor, I don't smoke
Stay Gold.

Offline kyokugen

  • Event Organisers
  • *
    • View Profile
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2012, 03:24:44 PM »
Running a phoenixed cps2 game on a arcade/supergun is just like running it on a bad emulator.
no.

Please provide evidence to support this claim, but phoenixed boards are just boards with decrypted data such that they do not need to rely on the battery for encryption keys. The only issue this has is if you say, run a game in a different region, when each board has region specific data. This is not the case of ST.
ヽ(´ー`)ノ

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2012, 04:58:50 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFyiAIpHNCI
the video explains some issues(watch all of it to understand what phx are)
i wouldn't rely on phoenix boards, some do work but you have to remember they are hacked boards.
Please governor, I don't smoke
Stay Gold.

Offline kyokugen

  • Event Organisers
  • *
    • View Profile
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2012, 06:48:52 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFyiAIpHNCI
the video explains some issues(watch all of it to understand what phx are)
i wouldn't rely on phoenix boards, some do work but you have to remember they are hacked boards.
Thank you for the link. I know what phoenixed boards are, and yes, most of us are aware that they are 'hacks', however it's not to change the game in any form, it's purely to bypass the encryption (incorrectly presented as 'forces the encryption through' in the video) and gameplay isn't affected outside of region. It is also the only solution for games whose batteries have died, as the keys are lost, but is generally disliked by board collecting enthusiasts as it affects resale value.

The actual procedure and how it works is fairly well documented, and may be found here
http://cps2shock.emu-france.info/suicide.html

There seems to be quite a few knowledge gaps by the creators of the video regarding CPS2 boards. Phoenixing does not 'force through encryption', nor does the process result in 'having all the roms on the board'. The odd behaviour in the video seems to be presenting seems purely incidental; there is no evidence that the phoenixing process itself caused that issue, or if the issue existed initially. It simply seems to be a problem with -a- phoenixed board. No phoenixed board I have come across has had such behaviour, nor is it a widely documented or encountered phenomenon.

To me it's something to be aware of, but only when testing boards for tournament play. If a board is faulty then it usually is recognised immediately and significantly - as the areas of the games code is affected. Generally boards, phoenixed or not, seem to be much more reliable than Dreamcast and maybe even 360s, and is still the preferred and most accurate port.
ヽ(´ー`)ノ

Offline BeefyGoodness

  • Forum regular
    • View Profile
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 02:48:09 PM »
The situation where we try and run these things side by side:

How long do you think you would be able to support two bakeries selling essentially the same products directly next door to each other?
 
The short answer is that one starts trying to cut the others throat pretty early on and the fighting etc costs them both a great deal in the long run.
 
Eventually everyone figures out that we shouldn’t be eating high carb bready diets and they all go out of business to the Sumo Salad that opened across the street J
Always cheap.

Offline zaneiken

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2012, 08:13:46 PM »
I had been bringing my DC to Perth meets for a good little while to drum up interest in ST, but aside from one impromptu tourney we held at a MvC3 event, there is very little interest from those new to SF2.

Offline fkuspencer

  • GOD OF EASTWOOD
  • *
  • SNAPUBAKURU
    • View Profile
Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo and HDR events.
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2012, 08:31:10 PM »
Eventually everyone figures out that we shouldn’t be eating high carb bready diets and they all go out of business to the Sumo Salad that opened across the street J

Yes, that Sumo Salad is SFxT!
<Gamog0> Eastwood rules

Offline Alexk

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2012, 11:56:05 AM »
Except this salad will make you fat

Offline Cabjoy

Re: Super Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo/HDR - Feedback
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2012, 09:29:46 PM »
Just letting people know, I put up a HDR matchmaking thread. I, for one, do not care about any issues HDR might have. I just want to play the damn game. Sure, there's GGPO. But sometimes I want to have a lobby, sometimes I want to talk vocally to the people I play, and sometimes I want to see what my other mates are playing on XBL/party up with them. So, if you wanna play HDR regularly (I'm looking at you, Vlade ;) ) add me so we can do this shit. I barely use the computer that has GGPO on it, so booting this shit up just for ST isn't always fun. Hope to get some adds soon, fuckers.
Saikyo!!!